Soundscapes of the People: A Musical Ethnography of Pueblo, Colorado

JoAn Gilmore-Jackson Interview October 8, 2022

Devised

Gilmore-Jackson, JoAn

Interviewee

Thomas, Susan

Interviewer

Okigbo, Austin

Interviewer

Moving image

Oral histories

2022-10-08

English

1 online resource (1 video file) (1 hr., 58 min., 26 sec.)

For access to the recordings on YouTube contact the University of Colorado Boulder American Music Research Center.

JoAn Gilmore-Jackson is a Pueblo-based gospel singer and church pianist. She discusses her childhood in Arkansas and her family's relocation to Pueblo for her father's work. Her father eventually became a pastor and she began her musical activity in church at a young age. She eventually went on to train other local gospel singers, such as Kennedy Pugh. Additionally, she discusses the history of Pueblo black community, racial tensions in Pueblo during her youth, and the changing scene of gospel music at Pueblo's black churches. She also gives a demonstration of the gospel song "I Know I've Been Changed."

00:00:00 JoAn Gilmore-Jackson and the interviewers introduce themselves and the Pueblo Soundscapes project. JoAn recounts her history with Kennedy Pugh, one of her vocal students who is a well-known local artist. JoAn grew up in Dumas, Arkansas before her family moved to Pueblo for her father's work. Although most of her siblings have moved to California, she stayed in Pueblo, where she worked primarily in nursing and was active in gospel singing. Additional topics include: "Star Spangled Banner"; "the home of heroes"; American Music Research Center; Bethlehem Baptist Church; CF&I Steel Mill; California; Dumas, AR; Kennedy Pugh; Pueblo Depot Activity; gospel music; nursing; National Endowment for the Humanities; Baptist--religious music; immigration--Colorado; African American history--Colorado. 00:10:58 JoAn mentions she had been singing in Pueblo for fifty years! JoAn describes the gospel scene in Pueblo. She says that while gospel was booming in the city in the '70s and '80s, it went into decline in the '90s due to dwindling church attendance. A few black churches in the city still have small gospel choirs. Though she thinks the black churches of the city should consolidate their congregations, she says there are too many differing opinions for this to be possible. Additional topics include: Bethlehem Baptist Church; Eighth Street Missionary Baptist Church; Kentucky; New Bethany Church; New Hope Church; Oregon; St. Louis, MO; Washington; St. Paul, MN; Baptist churches; Methodist churches; gospel music. 00:16:25 Interviewer, Susan Thomas, asks, “Is there a particular style of gospel that is popular, especially like in those missionary baptist churches?” JoAn describes the gospel style in Pueblo as being primarily focused on choir-based singing without accompaniment. Eventually JoAn started playing piano accompaniment at about the age of ten. She briefly studied piano with a local nightclub musician, Venus Lewis, but stopped because the teacher made her cry. Instead, she and her sister would sneak off to McDonald's. Later, she describes how local church singers who went into solo singing careers like her all sung in the gospel style. Additional topics include: "Chopsticks"; Blend, CO; McDonald's; Ponderosa Restaurant; Pueblo County Country Club; Rudel Smith; Star Bar; Venus Lewis; collared greens; piano; gospel choirs; piano lessons; gospel music. 00:27:45 Thomas asks if there was a real division between people who played out and people who played in church. There was a community divide between those who sang in church and those who sang professionally. This was evidenced by the ousting of a singer who included the phrase "oo baby" into a performance at a church where her father was the pastor, causing uproar in the community. Additional topics include: Floyd Carter; Martin Luther King Jr.; Salt & Pepper; New Hope Baptist Church;church singing; gospel music. 00:30:00 JoAn talks about some of the family legacies in church leadership and attendance among the black churches in Pueblo. In her own family, none of her children have continued her singing, though her son is an online church minister. Additional topics include: "Wade in the Water"; "gift of Gab"; Anthony Woodfork; Bethlehem Baptist Church; Martin Luther King Jr.; Spirit of the Shepherd Ministries; tithe; New Hope Baptist Church; gospel music; African American churches--Colorado. 00:35:43 Interviewer, Austin Okigbo, states, “It seems from everything you're saying there was a very vibrant black community here.” From the 1960s to the early '80s, Pueblo had a vibrant black community, drawn by the city's various industries. The community drastically declined in the '80s when the steel mill closed, causing a big exodus to California. Her children's' generation mostly left to Denver for economic opportunities in the '90s. JoAn surmises that the city's black community has decreased from about 15,000 people in the 1970s to about 10,000 today, though much of today's black population are new military transplants. JoAn bemoans the loss of a united community feeling at church today, as opposed to the past when there was a large amount of community choir involvement. Additional topics include: California; Colorado State Hospital; Denver, CO; Pueblo Union Depot; CF&I Steel Mill; African American history--Colorado. 00:44:31 JoAn discusses the dwindling community-based culture in Pueblo. She sees this as a reflection of a dwindling religiosity in the city, starting in the 1990s. She uses the decline in caring for the homeless population of the city as an example of people caring less for their community and the general public. Additional topics include: 60 Minutes; Central Christian Church; City of Pueblo; covid-19 pandemic; homelessness; community life--Pueblo, CO. 00:52:46 JoAn discusses growing up in Pueblo during the Chicano and Black Panther movements. He father met with civil rights leaders to discuss peaceful versus violent protesting and she participated in protests. She discusses that the white baptist church population was sympathetic to the civil rights movement and also participated in protests, likely due to the more-liberal leanings in Pueblo, as opposed to, for example, Colorado Springs. Additional topics include: Black Panthers; Cesar Chavez; Chicano Movement; Colorado Springs, CO; Democrat; Emmanuel Church; H Rap Brown; Lake Avenue Church; Pueblo Army Depot; Republican; folk singing; Centennial High School;social protest--Baptist church; social protest--Pueblo, CO; civil rights movement. 01:00:11 JoAn discusses the connections between southern Colorado's religious life and the state's military bases. Connections with military churches allowed for greater performance opportunities for JoAn's church singing. JoAn surmises that the current presence of military personnel in Pueblo is tied to the poor housing situation in Colorado Springs, where the bases are located. Additional topics include: Colorado Springs, CO; Fort Carson, CO; Fountain, CO; military churches; urban renewal; James H. McMearn;religion--military; United States Armed Forces. 01:06:19 JoAn lives in the Hyde Park subdivision in Pueblo's "West Side." She discusses the boundaries of Pueblo's neighborhoods. The South Side neighborhood was the upper class area of the city, which did not allow for black residents during JoAn's childhood. However, Pueblo's schools were not segregated in the 1960s. Additional topics include: "Dogpatch" neighborhood; Aberdeen subdivision; Pueblo East Side neighborhood; Pueblo North Side neighborhood; Pueblo South Side neighborhood; Pueblo West Side neighborhood; Hyde Park subdivision;racial segregation--Pueblo, CO; redlining; neighborhoods--Pueblo, CO. 01:10:13 Okigbo asks, “So there's some degree of overlap between the black civil rights movement and the Chicano movement? How did those two interface or interact?” Though there was overlap between the black civil rights and Chicano movements in Pueblo, there was a lot of youth fighting due to racial tension between the black and Mexican communities. JoAn was even the cause of a race-based riot in high school, though she was chastised by her father. She believed the divide between the black and Mexican communities of Pueblo exists to this day. Additional topics include: Black Panthers; Brown Berets; Centennial High School; Chicano movement; black supremacy; civil rights movement; racism; racial segregation--Pueblo, CO. 01:15:52 Thomas asks, “Was there a Buddhist temple here when you were growing up?” JoAn discusses the divide between religious denominations in Pueblo when she was growing up. The black community was primarily Baptist and though they sometimes interacted with Methodist and Jewish children, they tended to shun Seventh Day Adventists, as they worshiped on Saturdays. She bemoans the division that this old way of thinking caused. Additional topics include: Judaism; Methodist Church; Seventh Day Adventist Church; Missionary Baptist Church; religion--Pueblo, CO; denominations--Christianity. 01:18:15 JoAn criticized the way that standards for church attire have declined for some younger church members. Dr. Okigbo, as a Catholic priest, discusses his own experience of these declining standards. Dr. Thomas includes that it is at least positive that they are showing up to church, though JoAn disagrees. Currently, JoAn still sings and plays piano at church and substitutes at the Cornerstone Church in Fountain, CO. Additional topics include: Catholic Mass; gospel music; church attire--religion. 01:24:21 JoAn doesn't like the inclusion of modern praise music in church, instead preferring purely gospel music. She gives a demonstration of "I Know I've Been Changed" to show a traditional gospel style of church singing. She believes that the older traditions of gospel singing are superior to the more modern style with its "worldly" additions. Additional topics include: Kirk Franklin; Thomas Dorsey; black church music; "I Know I've Been Changed"; gospel music. 01:36:04 --- Thomas asks, “Among the black churches here in town, especially those Missionary Baptist churches, did any of them have bands as part of the service or was it just keyboard?” Black churches in Pueblo used a variety of instruments in their church services. Additional topics include: Hammond organ; guitar; horns; keyboards; organ; piano; tambourine; saxophone; church music. 01:36:58 JoAn warns against mixing the "worldly" with the sacred as this invites the Devil in. She bemoans the erosion of religious tradition in the United States. Additional topics include: Satan; religious beliefs. 01:39:44 JoAn's father would implore his children to sing gospel songs in 5-part harmony. She surmises that pastors having their children sing could be a Southern cultural tradition, while Dr. Okigbo includes that it could come from an older African tradition of children singing to their elders. JoAn discusses how the tradition of gospel is taught to the next generation, such as with her instruction of Kennedy Pugh. The tradition of teaching gospel singing is closely intertwined with teaching religious gospel. She led workshops in gospel singing from the 1960's to the '90s. Additional topics include: Kennedy Pugh; church picnics; church retreats; workshop; "Amazing Grace"; Afro-diasporic traditions; gospel music; music education; religious education; church singing. 01:50:03 Thomas asks, “Do you feel like there's a uniquely Colorado or Southern Colorado sound?” JoAn surmises that the gospel style of Pueblo is more traditional than that heard in Colorado Springs, which has a more modernized style. She supposes that her style is also distinctive from that heard in the out of state places she has performed as well, such as Texas and Missouri, though she includes that her style could be influenced by her early childhood in Arkansas. Additional topics include: Arkansas; Missouri; Texas; Colorado Springs, CO; gospel singing. 01:53:05 JoAn says that hearing traditional gospel should give you "something to think about." Her goal in life is to praise God through her gospel singing. She concludes with a discussion of her gospel music collection. The interviewers explain to her how her collection might be digitized. Additional topics include: James Cleveland; Mississippi Mass Choir; Shirley Caesar; The Caravans; YouTube; eternal life; music technology; gospel music. End of recording.

Time coded description

Gospel music

Gospel singing

African American history--Colorado

Baptists

Civil rights movements

Black Panther Party

Pugh, Kennedy

Lewis, Venus

I Know I've Been Changed

JoAn_Gilmore-Jackson_Full_Interview_2022-10-08.mp4

https://ark.colorad…

American Music Research Center

2022

video/mp4

born digital

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